Great Western Arms Collector

Well now, this is something I wouldn’t have thunk existed.

A Great Western Arms .44-40 Fast Draw model with 7 1/2 inch barrel. Cabela’s sale, 7/1/10. Serial was collected. This piece is very late production.

A Great Western Sherriffs Model that sold through Cabelas in April, 2010.

My anecodtal observation having observed 5 or so of these is that many came with real stag grips.

So, what exactly is the relationship between EMF’s Great Western II and the original Great Western Arms revolver?

EMF was one of the owners of Great Western Arms in the late 50’s and early 60’s. It’s reasonable to assume they were the last owner of GW before it ceased. EMF probably owns the trademarks. In 2005 EMF started distributing the Great Western II, which is a very good quality Italian made SAA clone.

EMF has always been a distributor and not a manufacturer (I think…but am not certain). Great Western struggled when it was in business. My guess is that EMF’s role in owning GW was as a liquidator. They were the last ones in, and bought the remaining inventory of parts and finished guns to sell until they were gone. EMF is a fine company by the way, with a super reputation.

Something like the Great Western II has no real lineage to the Great Western. The Great Western II is a modern rendition of the SAA, and superior in quality to the old Great Westerns. I had a Great Western II. I sold it to by something else, but I really desire another. Very nice guns (whisper…better than Uberti’s).

What company now is most comparable to the old Great Western Arms as a domestic maker of ‘perfected’ Colt style single-actions? Probably USFA. I want one of those also.

There’s only about 3 decent articles on the web about Great Western’s. Here they are:

http://www.greatwesternfirearms.com/htm/body.htm - This site was made by an accomplished collector of Great Westerns, and tells the GW story the best. Great information.

http://www.shootmagazine.com/articles/firearms/great_western.htm - a Shoot magazine article by reknowned gun writer John Taffin.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/everygun/GunMfgDetail.aspx?id=417 - a little blurb maintained on the Cheaper than Dirt website (a parts and accessories retailer). I think MOST of this information is reliable.

So, how much are they worth? Thats a commonly asked question.

I think its a hard question to answer, and particulalrly hard for something like a blue book value of firearms to answer. Great Westerns are bought and sold so thinly that there isn’t a very large comparison set.

My observation in shopping for them and seeing them sell (actual closed sales, reserve met, no ridiculoulsy high starting bid) on Gunbroker and live auctions is this (as of 2009):

.22s - in good shape with nothing broken - around $400. Expect to pay more for fast draw models and barrels other than 5 1/2.

Centerfires - in good shape with nothing broken - around $500. Prices might be dramatically more for real nice condition guns and .44-40 or .44 special models.

Derringers - $300, $400 - I don’t know, these are very thinly sold.

Low production models like the buntline and deputy model are another matter entirely. I have no idea what they would go for, except to say ‘more’.

If you’re buying, theres not a good way to know whats the ‘right’ price. You don’t get many opportunities to buy them at all. It ends up being a call on your personal comfort zone with what you want to pay.

I have this Great Western .22, and its just a peach. 5 1/2 inch barrel, blued finish, chrome hammer and grip assembly.

I had an opportunity to speak by phone with the most accomplished collector of Great Westerns. He was a great guy, and very gracious. He wanted to steer me away from the idea that my Great Western had a factory finish though, and said they didn’t mix nickel or chrome finishes with blue. The only finishes should be blue, nickel, chrome, and case hardened / blue.

I since encountered this GW on Gunbroker (I didn’t bid on this).

First of all - nice item that sheds some light on the Great Western packaging and accessories of the time. I have to think thats a factory finished duotone revolver. There is no Great Western factory documentation left, so theres no way of knowing. I imagine there are some oddities out there that were made as factory custom orders, and probably more than a few duotones. I just encountered another one in a picture on a chat board. It looked exactly like mine, but was a .44 special.

Welcome to my site. I don’t want to be the go to guy on the web for information about Great Westerns. Fact of the matter is, I’m not even an intermediate level collector. I own three.

I love them though, I think they are neat as all get out. These revolvers are quality pieces from an era gone by. A Great Western SAA really captures that sense of ‘Americana.’

People out there with a passing interest likely know the story of Great Western Arms Co. Started in Hollywood in 1953 or so. Backed by some wealthy southern Californians, incuding big Hollywood stars. The company flamed out in the early 60’s after Colt reintroduced the SAA.

Beyond that, theres not much narrative or meaningful information out there about Great Western Arms revolvers. I just thought I’d have a place here on the web to collect and publish information I encounter. Maybe make an observation or participate in a discussion now and then.

Thanks! Write me about Great Westerns at sackpeterson@comcast.net

Roper rules

I have a great interest in vintage Roper grips (as well as Lew Sanderson grips, which I’ll no doubt write about soon).  I own a couple pairs, have traded off a couple, and am always looking for more.  Roper grips are a niche in the shooting collectibles and antiques market, and there’s not a lot of published documentation about them.  It’s a hard subject to Google, with most of the good information passed word of mouth between knowledgeable collectors.  Here’s my contribution.  Much of what I’ve learned has been taken from taken from internet forum boards, personal examination of Roper stocks and pictures of them, and one great article by Kevin Williams in Man at Arms magazine.

Roper grips were aftermarket target stocks marketed by Walter Roper from about 1934 to 1952.  They were handmade, from wood, and production numbers reflect a relative scarcity compared to the abundance of something that was machine or assembly line produced (think about how you can always find older Franzite grips).

Roper’s grips were made by two stock makers in his employ - Matheis Gagne and WDH Nichols.  Gagne made grips during the entire run, with Nichols joining during the mid to late period to focus on grip panels for semi-automatic pistols.  Gagne’s specialty was revolver stocks, and the distinctive three arched finger tip ribbon found on many Roper grips was his signature mark.  The ribbon, in combination with a couple other more subtle features, is the way most Roper stock’s are identified and authenticated. 

Roper grips that survive to this day command high prices.  The highest I’ve seen was around $950 for a set of N frame stocks on EBay about two years ago (when money was flush…).  I believe under normal circumstances, $500 give or take is a more typical amount for a set of Roper’s in good condition – though that’s still a real good price for a set of grips.

Having mentioned the rarity and the current prices, it’s my suspicion there’s a fair amount of Roper stocks out there (residing on vintage handguns) that are not immediately identifiable as Roper’s at first glance.  Most conspicuously, these tend to lack the Roper (i.e., Gagne) fingertip ribbon.

Roper stocks do not have a maker’s mark, so in any event the task of authenticating a set of Roper stocks is entirely a matter of confidence.  In effect, the degree to which the stocks conform to the commonly understood Roper pattern determines what they’re worth.  The ribbon is a usually a dead giveaway.  When it’s present, those grips   command the highest prices.  In many cases, grips without the ribbon are selling for no premium at all because the buyer and seller aren’t aware the grips are Roper’s.

Here’s a list of other features and assumptions that might help determine if a set of antique grips conform to the Roper style and are in fact Roper’s:    

1. Almost without exception, Roper grips will show two small, squarish stake holes (one low, one high, an inch and a half or so apart) on the backs of each panel.  These jig holes were created when Gagne and Nichols mounted the panels onto their checkering saddle so they could cut the checkering.  Possible exception:  some grips with an otherwise typical Roper ribbon or scallop will have round, machine cut jig holes in back.  There’s some speculation these are not Roper grips, but those of an imitator from the same time or more recent.  However, there’s also the counter speculation that these are in fact Roper grips, made during the late period when a more inexpensive machine checkering option was offered by Roper.

2. The Roper ribbon as commonly known may appear on both panels, one, or none at all.  Two ribboned panels or a set with none at all signifies an ambidextrous set.  Sets with one ribbon usually show this on the left panel (border outlines the fingertips of the strong hand, most people are right-handed).  Conversely, left-handed Roper grips with one ribbon on the right panel are a REAL rarity.  If you encounter set of vintage, checkered, but unribboned grips that otherwise bear a strong resemblance to Ropers, examine the backs of the panels for jig holes.  The presence of the jig marks in combination with other Roper features goes a long way in authentication. 

3. The most common, unribboned sets are ambidextrous revolver grips that are shaped a lot like Colt Python stocks.  When encountered, these are almost fully checkered.  Look for the jig holes.  But, Griffin & Howe stocks from the same period look a quite a bit like these.  These are pretty desirable themselves though.

4. There are quite a few variations of the fingertip border or scallop to be found.  A fully checkered panel - with the three arched, two pointed, uncheckered ribbon - is obviously the most common.  Other variations include three finger tip impressions on one panel, with these indentations being checkered.  Or, checkering on the fingertip side may appear on the inner half, ending with a leaf edge pattern in the center of the grip (again, 2 pointed).  The backstrap side is uncheckered.  If you see a set of vintage grips with ornate fingertip checkering on one side, again, look for jig marks on the backs of the panels to further confirm as Ropers.   

5. Almost without exception you should assume all Roper grips will have at least one diamond showing around a grip screw hole (on either panel).  The other panel may have its hole in an uncheckered area, but if it is in a checkered area, it should have a diamond around it.  The tallness of the diamonds on the vertical axis may vary any given set.  This is a matter of the degree to which the checkering lines intersect.  I observe some set to set variation, it does not appear Gagne had a standard pattern. 

6. All genuine Roper grips should have checkering of some sort.  Hand checkering on Roper grips has been described as “organic” (Williams words in Man at Arms -  I thinks it’s a good description).  It’s well executed, at about 18 lines per inch.  Nonetheless, real Ropers may show some very light scribe overruns into the borders.  This is common, typical, and good for authentication.

7. Grips screw sets will generally be of the type Smith and Wesson used during the same era.  Brass escutcheons, unblued screw.

8. Sets for the Colt medium frame double-action revolvers of the day are the most numerous, with similar Smiths a close second.  But Ropers were also made for the Colt Single Action Army, Police Positive, 1911, Woodsman, H&R USRA, and the various High Standard semi-auto 22s (B, HD).

9. Roper revolver grips usually display a ‘coke bottle’ shape, with a slight flair at the bottom and a swell in the palm side.  Roper grips heavily influenced Smith’s later ‘coke bottle’ N frame grips (see Williams).  Roper grips usually add a fair amount of length to the butt.  Roper grips, even when covering the entire frame, are somewhat slim.

10. Thumbrests are often encountered on Roper grips, and almost always show checkering into the thumbpad.

11. Wood and finish color on Ropers will vary.  They’re mostly walnut, with stains ranging from dark purplish/red to light honey.

I think quite a few collectors are conditioned to dismiss and walk by vintage handguns (slightly pre and post war anyway) that don’t have their original stocks.  I look at these guns closely.  Ignoring the Jay Scott and Franzite stuff is no doubt very easy, but a nice set of vintage aftermarket stocks really intrigues me.  These are the criteria I use to determine if they’re Roper’s, and I think, a reasonable authentication guide.

I’ve tried to attribute info to published authors who deserve credit.  The rest is my own observations.  Enjoy – buy wisely and sell honestly with appropriate caveats.